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Casserole Wednesday - A Recovering Physicist's Apology

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Previous Entry Casserole Wednesday Apr. 20th, 2005 @ 07:21 pm Next Entry
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From:dlc2k
Date:April 20th, 2005 05:49 pm (UTC)
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Let me go on a philosophical aside here for a moment, I love it because if I want to play a third person shooter I will load it on my PC. A controller can NEVER simulate a mouse and keyboard experience. Halo tries to do this. Prime does not. That is why Prime is better.

MP and Halo are FIRST person shooters. :) Through the eyes of the protagonist. 3rd person is when you can see you character.

While I agree with you that mouse/keyb setup cannot be beaten, I think you are hard on Halo for 2 reasons:
1) You just plain don't like it
2) You've never been really good at FPS games on consoles.

#2 is not me being a jerk, it's just stating a fact. Recently I've become really tired of "elitist" keyb/mouse comments. Yes, it is the opimal setup. But a controller is not worse, it's just different. You've never really gotten all the facts on a situation before you start talking; you like what you like and nothing will change that.

All that I'm asking is that you declare your opinions as such: they are your opinions. If I want to play a game, I'm not going to skip it because it's on a console rather than a PC. I can circle-strafe and kick as much butt with a controller as I can with a mouse/keyb.

Also, Metroid Prime has a decent control scheme, but it was never meant for competitive play. The Gamecube controller is not good for FPS games, and Miyamoto has been officially quoted on this several times. MP is not a standard FPS, just as Zelda is not an "RPG." It's an action/adventure RPG.

I'm not saying these things to argue with you. :P I'm just stating my opinion to have a debate with you. You've ALWAYS been against consoles, excluding Nintendo, which you are unequivocally fanboyish about.

In related news: I really need to get Paper Mario: 1k Year Door!!!!!
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From:biggrumpy
Date:April 21st, 2005 08:47 am (UTC)
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I can be elitist for a simple and obvious reason, I am right. 

Here are the facts, as I see them:

Why the Keyboard/Mouse is better can be broken down into two categories:

Hardware:
1 Versatility of use: The keyboard provides a much more versatile platform than the gamepad. Assuming the standard “wasd” movement, “shift” run/walk toggle, “left ctrl” crouch, one can still easily reach 16 keys (q, e-t, f-g, z-b, 1-5) that can be assigned as one wishes with more if you are willing to make the occasional uncomfortable stretch to “h” or “n” or “y” etc. If you would be so kind as to show me the 16 button controller I would be surprised. That extra freedom translates into a more personalized game. Your, virtually unplayable to me, Diablo II setup fits your needs perfectly, but could NEVER be duplicated by a controller.
2 Versatility of form: There is a far greater selection of keyboard/mouse styles available to the PC gamer than there are makes of controllers. There is usually the standard proprietary component and then a few secondary companies (Mad Katz for example), but it simply cannot compare to the availability of mice/keyboards. This translates into the fact that you may very well find a controller you do not like and are stuck with it, but it is very unlikely you could not find a comfortable mouse/keyboard.
3 Versatility of function: the optical mouse - which it is safe to say is now the standard that most pc owners have - is at least an order of magnitude more accurate than an analog stick – even if it is a brand new controller. The optical mouse and keyboard wear out at a much slower pace than controller (I submit my old Smash Brother’s controllers as evidence). In the world of FPS accuracy matters. There is, though, something to be said about everyone having the same hardware (ie everyone has an X-box controller) but I would rather have a more accurate input device than knowledge that “everyone is on the same level field”
4 I would argue, though this is my weakest point, that the learning curve for a mouse/keyboard is not as sharp as for a controller FPS. If you have used a word processor I think you can rather quickly pick up the key/mouse setup. Learning a controller first person shooter interface is tricky and often based on the game you are playing, which you have said yourself when we rented Duke 64. I like the more “pick up and go” style that most computer FPS provide. Though the PC FPS being more pick up and go than the console is just my sense.
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From:biggrumpy
Date:April 21st, 2005 08:47 am (UTC)
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Philosophy:
1 I would expect someone like you to understand what I am about to say. First person shooters were CREATED for the computer. As a person that OWNS a Dreamcast with every Super Nintendo Rom available, why do you go out and buy the cartage? Why would a self styled “gamer of every console” waste money on getting a game twice when he could put that money towards another different (unowned) game on another system? The logical thing to do, if you were TRULY living the gamer lifestyle, would be to never buy the same game twice but, instead, constantly buy new and different games. Yet you go out and buy SNES/Genesis games when you own the roms? Why? Because the Dreamcast can simulate the experience of playing a NES game, but it isn’t really “playing” the NES game. You do not have the square controller, the blowing into the cartage, the beautiful red glow of the LED on the grey monster system itself. These are illogical connections but they add up and make you say “I truly am PLAYING an NES game.” An experience that no Dreamcast (or PC) emulator can give you. Just as you cannot play a NES rom on the Dreamcast/PC and get the same complete feeling as if you were playing it on the actual NES, I cannot get that feeling from FPS on consoles. I also cannot get that feeling from action games on the PC. My Alienware machine can easily emulate the N64 but I would not want to play Mario 64 or Ocarina of Time on it, because it wouldn’t feel right.
2 Your claim that the keyboard/mouse is not better but is just different is ridiculous. And we both know you don’t really mean it. We both know that because of two simple examples; Starcraft 64 and Diablo PS1. If you honestly felt, as you claim, that the controller scheme is not inferior to the mouse/keyboard you would then HAVE to admit that playing an RTS on a console is not “worse” but “just different than playing it on the computer.” And don’t give me that, “You can’t play an RTS on the console” crap because that is NO different than me simply responding to your arguments, “You can’t play an FPS on a console because you can’t.”


As for why I like Prime and not Halo, perhaps you were not good enough at Prime to notice that if you hit the “x” button Samus goes into the morph ball, which is in 3rd person. Perhaps you were not good enough at Prime to then know that the vast majority of puzzles were solved via third person. Prime 2 expands this with the third person screw jump and several third person boss and enemy battles. In doing so Prime plays much more like an Action game than a FPS, but, again, you would know this if you were better at Prime and played it more. I have probably played more Halo than you have Civilization II, but you don’t like Civilization II and I don’t like Halo. Part of the reason I don’t like Halo is because I think the game itself is pretty mediocre, but part of it too is that it FPS don’t feel right on the console. I felt the same way about Goldeneye, Duke 64, etc etc. Those games never got p1mped out as much as Halo, so, of course, it is the game I tend to compare things too. Every X-Box fan boy on this planet compares everything to Halo, so I will do the same if for no other reason than name recognition (and the game blows).

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From:biggrumpy
Date:April 21st, 2005 08:47 am (UTC)
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The point of that is two fold, one is, Prime legitimately plays more like an action game than Halo – which is a good thing. And two, suggesting that just because I am not good at console shooters means I don’t like them is pretty preposterous. I play many games that I am not particularly good at. I have never gotten a knack for fighting games (smash bros aside), but I still enjoy them. Truth be told I am not particularly good at FPS on the computer either – I am skilled enough to utterly crush Jeff and you at our yearly New Year’s eve parties, but that hardly takes skill – yet I love FPS. My dislike of console FPS goes deeper than the rather childish “I can’t win!” Just as I would hope your dislike of Warcraft III and Civilization II go deeper than you are not very good at them.

I realize that my beliefs are just that, my beliefs. And I know you find it annoying that I just throw stuff out there sometimes, but I have two things to respond to that. One is I don’t like hedging from a rhetorical standpoint. There is way too much of “In my opinion…” “I think…” etc. it weakens the discourse, and I don’t like it. If I didn’t think something I wouldn’t be saying it. And two is, this is my blog for crying out loud. If I am going to try and minimize my hedging in normal speech why on earth would I hedge in my own forum? I know they are just my opinions, you know they are just my opinions, and hopefully people reading this are smart enough to know they are just my opinions: that should be enough. If people think there has been some natural law that has conclusively proven that Prime 2 is better than Halo 2, let them think that!

Third I am not against consoles. I have been poor in the past (not having a job will do that to you) and so I have had to use my limited resources wisely. If I only had so much money it makes no sense to buy a PS2 over a computer. I have always been about what I consider to be the strongest gaming platforms. The computer is the strongest gaming platform for a variety of reasons, which you have agreed with in the past. The Gamecube is the second best by my measure. If I could only have one gaming platform it would be the PC – hands down. If I could have two, they would be the PC and GC. Just as if you could only have 1 or 2 systems you would have your top two picks. Now that I have a job and can afford to spend a little more, I would buy a PS2. Unfortunately Japan runs on a different region and it would be a pain to deal with that, but when I am stateside next time maybe I will pick one up and lug it back here.


And Paper Mario 2 is the bomb diggy there is some truely hilarious stuff that goes on, plus it is uber charming
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From:dlc2k
Date:April 21st, 2005 01:01 pm (UTC)
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I actually understand your POV and feel better in general after reading your breakdown. (Not "breakdown" as in losing control, but breakdown as in the layout of your argument.) It had always seemed to me that you were "console FPS gamez SuXorZZ!!!1!11!" whereas here you laid out your opinion for me. That's why I asked you to state this as "your opinion" instead of (what I perceived to be) fanboyism. I gotcha, and I'm on the same page. :)

The problem I've always had with you bashing controllers in FPS games is that I never thought you'd given it a fair chance. In all honesty, I'm with you, and (as you know) I always have been: keyb/mouse is a better setup. Period. In fact, I'm willing to be it's the optimal setup for all FPS/RTS* games, and almost any gaming genre you're into. Of course there are games I prefer controllers to, such as 3rd person games. I'd never play Zelda, Mario, or Metroid with a keyb/mouse for example.

It has just always seemed to me that you bash anything you do not like. I have rarely seen the objectivity in the bashing that I did in reading your argument here. Whenever Halo comes up in any conversation, you immediately lose all self-control and start gulping the hatorade. =)

I'd like to take this time to say that I DO NOT dislike War3 or CivII/III!!! :( I really like War3, but my preference has always been (and always will be) StarCraft. And as for Civ, I'm just not into turn-based games. I like Civ, I'm just not into the genre. Much like flight sims.

I was/am good at Metroid Prime, I just didn't really like the control scheme, but I did at the same time. It was fine for a leisurely pace, but when I move in first-person perspective, I'm so used to moving in a crescent pattern when I move instead of turning, that it got annoying. I had to walk forward, turn, then walk again, instead of "crescent-ing" around. And while I could move just fine in morph ball mode, I didn't feel I should have to turn into the ball just to move, you know?

As for being a "pure gamer," yeah, I know I've done some silly things at many points. ;) While I do buy new and exciting games quite often, I have replaced far too many games far too many times! It has more to do with spending money than anything... you know... sane and rational. Can't defend it!! (Presently we're speaking on AOL, and I've explained it to you. The "experience as much as possible with collatoral damage" thing.)

As for playing ROMs over cartridges, I'm glad you see my POV. I love having the ROMs for certain systems. For example, on Dreamcast I have every NES game ever made. But there definitely is something to owning a game, especially when you collect as well as play. (REMEMBER THE PICTURE!!) Sometime last summer I actually threw away ALL of my burnt games for PC and PS1. The only system I have burnt media for is my Dreamcast, b/c the rarer games are hard to find and the system is deceased.

So there we go! :) All cleared up, I think.
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From:pollopeligroso
Date:April 22nd, 2005 11:36 pm (UTC)

Emulation

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I think I might be able to say I pwn you all in emulation.

As the proud owner of anything cartridge based up to and including most GBA games. I still would much, much rather play the console. In fact, I spent fairly large sums of money (for one so poor as myself) on finding and collecting the "classic" games. I turned one room into a video game entertainment center simply becuase there is *NOTHING* like having a buncha guys in the same room all on the classic consoles.

I think it's the same thing as the LAN > Playing on the net thing. *shrug* Of course, I've always considered myself more of a console gamer.
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From:biggrumpy
Date:April 23rd, 2005 02:58 am (UTC)

Re: Emulation

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Yes within the last year, two of my friends had the most heated game of NES's "Ice Hockey" I have ever seen. I thought it would come to blows at any moment...
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From:dlc2k
Date:April 24th, 2005 04:14 am (UTC)

Re: Emulation

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Speaking of coming to blows, I think you should update your blog on what Baraka Laurence Pennyworth III would think about The Moto Racer Incident. :) THAT is classic.
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